Monday, March 13, 2006

Oh and by the way I'm also agnostic.

(one who believes that the evidence for and against the existence of God is inconclusive. (agnosticism)


Kendra Lynn said...

hmmm. :) Scott's dad used to be agnostic, but he's starting to change his view a bit. :) I'm not sure what's changing him, but its kind of cool to watch.

I love you, Lauren. :)


Anonymous said...

Debates (of any kind) tend to wear me out! Hope all of this hasn't changed your mind about what a nice time you had at the choir concert!

Lauren said...

Yeah, debated wear me out too. :)
Oh course, I had a WONDERFUL time at the concert. The agnostic thing just means, I seem to be weighing science and religion and agree that God can niether be proved OR disproved. It's kind of an open stance. At least that is how I took the definition.

I've see religion both embrace differences in people and push away people. I don't like the push away times. So that's why I'm kind of "on the fence".

Personally in my life, in Judaism actually, I have been welcomed by some Jews and not accepted by others. It's kind of sad that there is a yucky side to religion once in a while.

That said, I really really had a nice time at the concert AND I very much enjoyed your form of worship! And that's the truth! :)

BTW...I'm so happy and over joyed about your Dad's good news!!! :)That is great! :)

PS. are you in NJ now?

Kendra Lynn said...

Hey there. :)
I'm still home, but leaving tomorrow morning for NJ.
How did Daniel's sermon go on Saturday?

Lauren said...

Hi! Ohhh....please drive very safely. I'll miss you and see you guys when you are back! FYI..changed the agnostic definition, I'm not as harsh believing as some, I didn't mean it that way....

Well, I heard that Daniel's sermon went really well and that he is a good public speaker. I stayed home to take care of Noah. Conservative services are not lively at all, like yours. I think one scream out of Noah or him wanting to run around and we would have had to leave anyway.

I'm sad I missed Daniel's big day, and hope to see him speak another time. I was ok with it though, those conservative services really make me uncomfortable. I don't like them. I hate having to say these prayers out loud with everyone that I don't agree with or believe in. It's like lying to me. That's not good. I like my private prayers much better and they come from my heart instead.

Lauren said...

I meant I don't believe and agree with the words in the prayers, not the people.

Sorry..odd wording...

Lauren said...

Oh! "I don't like them" as in the services, not the people.

Kendra Lynn said...

I'm glad you were able to at least sit through the choir concert. I think you'd actually be able to sit through the majority of a regular service at our church as well. If merry and Kelsey can do it, Noah can. LOL
I'm sorry you had to miss Daniel's sermon though. I'm sure that would have been interesting to you.

I love you lots.


Daniel said...

I don't always agree with the prayers, either, and I pray three times a day. The problem with a set liturgy--like Judaism or Catholicism--is that it is set. It doesn't change. It doesn't respond to time. But that is also its great value. Knowing that 1500 years ago, a Jew in Babylonia was saying the same prayer you are saying now is pretty inspiring. Generally,what I try to do is find one prayer that I connect with. The resst I take or leave. And, I'm telling you, being an agnostic is very Jewish. But I wouldn't wait for science to prove God--the question is ultimately a personal one. God is emotional, not logical. The cornerstone of faith is irrational, and that doesn't matter whether you believe in the God of the Torah, Muhammed, Joseph Smith's Copper Plates in new york, or the Man from Nazereth that walked on water. Religion defies reason. But so do a lot of things in the world--love, trust, hope. If we only relied on our intellect to decide things, it would be a pretty crappy world.

I believe--and this is why I am a heretic in 1000 religions--that all of religion is metaphor for understanding something beyond our comprehension. You have to pick the one that is right for you. Obviously, I believe in Judaism, and and think that its rewards are great, if one can unconver the aesthetic beauty at its core. But stripped of its joy, it becomes a source of constricting pain. Sadly, I think most religions all too often cause pain.

A related question to my christian friends--does it ever raise a theological problem to you that me, my brother, my parents, my sister-in-law, and my nephew are all going to hell? Without passing go? Without collecting two hundred dollars? This would make me angry at God. Does your religion have an outlet for expressing that anger? Does it bother you that the Christ, who the Gospels portray as the living image of Love, could allow this to happen? This isn't meant in a hostil way; if I were a christian, I would be troubled by these things...

Lauren said...


Thanks for the comment. You REALLY are stirring it up. I don't think my friends think I'm going to hell. And anyway...even you said the cornerstone or religion is irrational. I agree. That is why I'm not going to hell, because it all is an "epic saga" formed by men thousands of years ago. Just because they say there is a hell, doesn't mean it really exists. Just because they say you shouldn't turn on the light on shabbat doesn't mean it's true.

You had a good point about prayer. That IS cool that you are saying words that Jews said 1500 years ago. I'm glad you found prayers that you connect to. I connect to NONE of them because I don't think religion is real, and I hate nothing more than going to services or shabbat and having to say them. This is new for me,having to go to services. I never ever ever grew up having to say prayers. I like choosing what/who/how I worship.

You mentioned that if we only replied on our intellect to decide things it would be a pretty crappy world. Yes, while feelings, empathy are good, if we only relied on our intellect, it would be a pretty RATIONAL world!

I resent it when people say you need religion or a religious up bringing to be a good, moral person. That is so wrong and so offesive. I didn't grow up with religion, neither did my brother and so far we haven't been to jail or commited adultry, heck I have NEVER like as in, even as a teen, lied to my parents. We've done charity work and we respected our grandparents and our history. I don't hate, I try to care and feel for others. I want to be moral. I am moral for the sake of being moral, not to please God.

I think you're right, that religion does cause a lot of pain in the world. It really does.

I 100% respect other people and their decision to follow religion. I don't knock it. If it fits for you, then it's great and right. For me though, my religion is not having one and I feel just fine with that.

Judy said...

Okay, I had to come back and respond to Daniel's comment.

My belief is that if you believe in GOD, all-knowing, all-powerful, just, true and fair, then heaven is yours. That is the cornerstone of my belief. In that, I believe that Jesus was the son of God. I have faith in that. But, just because those of the Jewish faith do not believe the "Jesus thing" does not lead me to believe that they will be going to Hell.

I save that response for the Baptists and the Church of Christs. Ha ha - okay, maybe not the Baptists.

I do not believe that Lauren is going to Hell, or Jon is going to Hell, certainly not Noah, and not Daniel or anyone else out there that believes in God. That's it - God is who my faith is based on. I'm not even sure I believe there is a Hell. However, I do believe there is life beyond death, and I believe that my faith in God and the grace of God will get me there. It will get you there, too.

Kendra Lynn said...

I definitly am NOT in a positin to judge another person...I have absolutely NO idea who is going to hell or heaven or who isn't. There is no guarantee that I am going to heaven. I believe in God, and I do my best to live a good, moral lifestyle, but I could really mess up my life tomorrow, die, and possibly miss out on heaven. That is my basic belief.
therefore, as a Christian, I cannot say that you, as a Jew, are going to Hell.
Hope that improves or gives you a good opinion of me. LOL
May God bless and keep you always.

Kendra Lynn